Porch and Parish The Podcast
Our mission is to make sure every Zachary resident feels heard and engaged! Host Mike Gennaro facilitates candid conversations with local leaders, influencers and innovators in Zachary, Louisiana and beyond with the help of producer Mike Holt. New episode every Monday at noon!
Porch and Parish The Podcast
Before You Install a Backup Generator
Discover the do's and don'ts of generator installation, straight from the experts. We explore new safety regulations, such as the mandatory automatic shutoff switch and carbon monoxide detectors, and discuss real-life consequences of neglecting these measures. Scott and Chip share their top tips for verifying contractor credentials and the importance of hiring licensed professionals. This episode is an invaluable resource for any homeowner in hurricane-prone areas, ensuring you make informed decisions that prioritize the safety and well-being of your household.
I'm Scott Masterson and I'm Chip Troth and please keep listening to Porch and Parish the podcast welcome, welcome, welcome to our humble abode here at Virginia Street, where the PNP headquarters are now located and the Gennaro fam now resides. We are back better than ever in Porch and Parish's third year life with. In the Z, they say, make hay while the sun shines, and in Louisiana that translates to making the correct moves for hurricane preparedness. Today we're tackling a topic that's crucial for every homeowner in hurricane-prone areas. With that season now upon us, many are considering investing in home generators to stay safe and prepared. But before you make that significant investment, there are some things you need to know, and in this special episode, we're thrilled to have two experts who can help you navigate this important decision. Joining us are Scott Masterson, city Inspector, and Chip Troth, meter Director at the City of Zachary. They'll be sharing their expertise on the hidden costs, regulatory requirements and the best practices for installing and maintaining home generators. It's a lot of stuff you probably don't know, because I didn't. Whether you're a seasoned homeowner or new to the area, scott and Chip's insights will ensure you're making a well-informed decision and avoiding unexpected expenses. So grab a notebook and get ready for some valuable information.
Speaker 4:I'm Mike G, host of Porch in Paris, the podcast. We bring you the best of our region and we broadcast it to you every Monday right here from our headquarters in beautiful downtown Zachary. This is Porch and Parish the podcast.
Speaker 4:So let's take it away. Scott, I think you're best to lead this off. Why are we here getting this very important message out to citizens in Zachary?
Speaker 2:Well, we've been seeing a huge uptake in personal home generators. You know, for a long time we would have the people were going to buy and the portable ones that you get from the store, whatever the 550s. And now we're starting to see a lot of people go and get the standalone home generators and they're great, we're glad to have them. But we also, I think, and Chip would agree, we're glad to have them. Um, but we also, I think, and chip would agree, if, whenever we have a storm, whenever we have a power outage, I think we seem to see see a uptake in in the permitting of generators. Um, if we kind of go through a period of not, they'll kind of drop off. But here recently we've been doing a lot within the city of zachary. Uh, actually did three today, yeah, so we're seeing a lot of them.
Speaker 4:And that's a good thing. It's a great thing when they're permitted right.
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's the main thing we want to try to get across is you know, a lot of people are like I'm not worried about a permit.
Speaker 2:This is one of those things that you really need to, because, well, you do always, no matter what it is, but in this situation it's very much so because you're dealing with literally electricity and gas inside your house. This isn't anything that you kind of want to play with. You alluded to in our conversation earlier this morning about wanting an impartial person to go in there to say, hey, this is done correctly. No electrician is going to go in there and say, look, I wired this thing up. It's not done right, it's probably not going to work. Give me my money, yeah, so you do want someone to go in there and look at it, especially with and I'm going to let Chip talk about the gas size, which ends up catching a lot of people. Correct me if I say it wrong, chip, but the standard size meter that comes on a house isn't quite big enough to run effectively run the generator and the gas appliance is still in your house, and that's sometimes that's when we catch somebody that didn't have it permitted because it wasn't done correctly.
Speaker 4:Yeah, it wasn't permitted, it wasn't inspected, so now your stuff isn't running okay, so from a third grader kind of level of knowledge of this stuff, if you don't have the capacity to run other things when you're running a generator, that means you might not have a generator working right when you need it.
Mike G:Yeah, that's exactly what's going to happen if you don't have the capacity available and the max capacity typically is going to come into play during the winter months. If you have an outage during a winter storm, when typically people don't think of the wintertime being the most critical time to have max capacity for gas, but that is actually when you're going to end up seeing and realizing that you don't have the capacity on that meter unless you went through the proper process of permitting having a BTU sheet turned in so that we could size it correctly and also get a regulator that will handle that volume of gas that's required at that time.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and so that's during winter outages. Typically you're going to seeages.
Mike G:Typically, you're going to see that problem where you're going to realize, hey, I don't have enough, uh, during the winter, because that's when your hot water heater is going, your heaters are going, uh, you know, if they're gas heaters, um, that you're going to, you're going to find it out then. Uh, sometimes in the summertime you'll be okay because you're only running air conditioner and that generator is running all of that stuff for you and you don't have a whole lot of draw, unless your wife decides that she wants to cook during the storm.
Mike G:Yeah, or you decide you want to cook yourself for yourself during the storm.
Speaker 4:Sure.
Mike G:You might be using a little bit of gas then. Yeah, definitely hot bath, that's right Well yeah, come in from yard work or whatever cleaning limbs up. Typical real drain on the gas BTUs is going to be during the wintertime.
Speaker 5:Yeah, okay.
Mike G:So let's build a case for the gas users out there. So I just paid for a home generator probably over 10 grand, Is that about what it is 15. Oh, my goodness, I'm out of touch. Oh, ouch, Okay. So I'm waiting for a time when this thing is going to kick in and just save me and, um, you know that time comes and I don't have meter capacity. So isn't that a case where, hey, somebody needs to pay for this right? That's the first thought everybody would would have. Why, why isn't my meter good enough, Zachary?
Mike G:Um, I can, I can kind of go into that a little bit. We're going to. If you go through the permitting process correctly, uh, that uh plumbing contractor is going to turn in a BTU demand sheet and we're going to size it and make sure that you have what you need so that that situation isn't going to happen to you. You know it's not going to be a gas volume. That's your issue if your generator isn't working, it's going to be something else.
Speaker 5:It's going to be.
Mike G:You need to call your generator guy. You don't need to call the city because you've got enough gas if you went through the permitting process and if you, if you paid for your upgrade, essentially, yeah.
Speaker 4:So we're having a problem where, um well, you know, in our pre-interview we kind of talked a little bit about the companies that were the service providers for generators were, um, pointing the finger at zachary, you know, when the things weren't working right. Can we say that, yeah, I mean that that has happened Actually.
Speaker 2:um, I'm touched on it. What was it, chip? A couple of weeks ago we had one that it was a homeowner. I'm not going to say it's a subdivision, but the homeowner was calling the power company because their generator wasn't working, it wasn't you know, a generator typically when you get it every week will kick on and run for about 15 minutes once a week.
Speaker 2:And they got to do that to keep it, make sure everything's flush, everything's working. You don't want to let it just sit there idle for two years and all of a sudden then it tries to work. Right, so it'll kick on. Well, apparently when this person was kicking on, it wasn't working. Okay, they called the generator. Generator people of, of course, are saying, well, you got to meet a problem because everything's done correctly, okay. She ends up calling the power company who goes over there and looks at it and then immediately calls me because they didn't have a record that there was ever a disconnect, got it. So when you do a generator, the the generator people actually have to get in your electric meter and you can't just do it. So you end up calling the power company. Power company comes, removes your meter, then the power company. Power company comes, removes your meter, then the generator people tie in from your meter to your panel and all that stuff and there's a sensor in there that when there's a disruption in the electric meter that it dies. That's what kicks your generator on, okay.
Speaker 2:Well, when the power company went there, they saw that it wasn't hooked up correctly. They looked through their paperwork and saw that the city of Zachary never sent us anything, which means it was never inspected. So then they called me. Of course I didn't have a permit. Yeah, we go over there, and there were some wires crossed. That's why it didn't work.
Speaker 2:And, sure enough, at that moment unfortunately I don't think the homeowner was able to get to the generator people she actually had to call another generator company to come in and fix it, got it, and so that that's the thing. And you know it's about $15,000. Your permit is going to run you about 50 bucks, um, and while not to make a lot of $50, $50, $50, but it's still for that $50, you're going to get chip, is going to verify everything on your gas meter, and I'm going to go out there and do the inspection. We're going to make sure everything's done correctly and safe and that everything will be running, and we're that independent party. But I will say that's not the only fee you have. Typically, when you have to, when you upsize that gas meter, you have to buy it. You have to buy the gas meter.
Speaker 4:And I can kind of speak to that.
Speaker 4:Chip's the cost guy.
Speaker 4:I'm a purchasing director on top of being a meter operations director, so I can speak to this from firsthand knowledge.
Speaker 4:Typically, 95, I would say 95 to 99 percent of the BTU applications that we get for these generators are going to require an upgrade. You know, very few homes are set up from construction to handle the capacity needed to run these generators, because these are whole house generators that, if you think about it, you're essentially asking your gas company to replace the electric grid, right, okay, so you're going to need more gas capacity than you needed when you originally were just planning for your lights and your lanterns out front and your fireplace light and that kind of thing, your stove, even one or two heaters. You're going to need that additional capacity because those things do require a lot and, from a cost standpoint, typically most homes will fall into the range of a 400-series meter with a two-pound regulator that the city requires by ordinance. And that's for us to be uh, be able to properly uh meter that, uh, that gas that's going through there and also provide the customer uh an extra little bit of capacity in the pipe of pressure when that thing initially starts and kicks off.
Speaker 4:So how many ounces of natural gas is that capacity for our details, people.
Speaker 4:Typically in a house you're going to have seven inches of water column or four ounces of pressure. That's going into a residence.
Speaker 4:Got it, and that's still going to be the. What's going to happen is the city is going to provide two pounds is going to help provide extra capacity for the generator, which typically is downstream 10 feet to as much as 100 feet downstream of where the meter location is. And in rural areas, which we have, several, what I would call rural areas, like, say, the plains or little farms area the meters are actually located at the road.
Speaker 4:So it may be 200 feet, so that pipe capacity with the additional pressure, um, you know, allows the customer, uh, and that generator contractor to not have any worries about what the city is providing. And then, um, the contractor is going to cut that uh, two, two pounds of pressure down back to the four inches of water. I mean seven inches of water column, or four ounces that go into the house. From a cost standpoint and I added it up the other day for Sharon just so that she would have an idea of what that cost would be it was $1,056 is what the actual cost of the material is to upgrade the meter.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Mike G:And the city charges and I'm going on the 400 series which most of the customers are going to fall into that range. Okay, our charge is $1,120 for that and you know Scott's going to go out there a couple of times. I usually go out there at least once before I send our guys out to actually do the fiscal upgrade and there is reams of emails and paperwork that's sent and phone calls that are made to the contractor, you know, by the city, to you know, to get that customer what they need in order to when power goes out. They have, they have some lights.
Speaker 4:Cool.
Speaker 2:All right, so I could touch on that just a little bit. That's what a lot of I would venture to say a lot of our homeowners will get a little you know kind of upset when they pay 15,000 to get a generator put in and then all of a sudden they were getting hit with another $1,100 for the size of the new meter. We have to do that. I've heard it where some people say my buddy in Baton Rouge didn't have to do that. Baton Rouge isn't their own gas company. They get their gas from Inter-G and, I'm sure, some other places. Those are private companies. They're allowed to do things that we as government cannot do. We can't take and I'll use the Gineros as an example that wants to put a generator up there. We cannot take the taxpayer money of John Doe and just give Mike Gineros a new generator, because it cost us that money to buy the generator or a new meter.
Speaker 4:Or a new meter.
Speaker 2:Sorry, Sorry, I said generator.
Speaker 4:I'll take a generator too.
Speaker 2:It cost us that to buy the meter. We don't get them for free. Some places and some of those companies you're still buying the meter. It's just maybe written into a cost thing on your bill, right? We can't do that State law, we on your bill, right, right?
Speaker 2:we can't do that um state law. We're not allowed to put anybody on payment plans because again it's all taxpayer money. So we don't. We don't have that luxury, like other private companies had, that can put you on a payment plan for the generator or stuff like that right, but then when you you need somebody, when you need a local expert, y'all are there.
Speaker 4:So that's the benefit yes but all right, so we made the cost argument for the city. There. There's another argument that you were expressing about just general safety. Can you give us some kind of horror stories about safety If you don't get your system inspected prior?
Speaker 2:what could happen. So a lot of people and that's more of what I do is the safety standpoint, the inspection point of it, and not only am I going in there and making sure that your wires are hooked up correctly, the right size, and all that. There are some things that the state has recently passed, one of them is being that if your generator is not an eyesight of the transfer switch, you have to put a sticker on that transfer switch telling where the generator is. A lot of people don't understand why. Until you explain it. Then they say that makes sense and I'll do it real quick is when the fire department goes out there. If your house catches on fire, the fire department or the power company is going to go out there and they're going to pull that meter so they can go into fights or fire. They're running in with axes and all kinds of stuff. They don't want to be poking around not only with fire, but an electrical issue too.
Speaker 4:I never knew that yeah.
Speaker 2:So they will actually pull the meter. The thing is with a generator once you pull that meter, it throws the sensor on there to start the generator, Right. So now the house is back hot again. Okay, so it's in the National Electric Code that every generator has to have an automatic shutoff switch and it's located right there on the back of generator. It's a little toggle switch and it's for a fireman or whoever in case of emergency to go in there and hit that switch and that will kill the generator. Yeah, the reason for the sticker is there is pandemonium going on. A house is on fire. If the fireman cannot see exactly where the generator is, that sticker says it's on the other side of the house, it's in the rear of the house and when it comes to fire safety, seconds matter. So that little sticker is there to tell them exactly where to go to shut that generator off, and they're not running around all over the property trying to find it. Yeah, got it.
Speaker 2:The other thing that I look at is carbon monoxide detectors, and that's a requirement now. Before there wasn't any. At one time there wasn't anything that pertained to carbon monoxide detectors when it comes to generators because they were so new carbon monoxide detectors when it comes to generators because they were so new the last time I was told. I don't know if this is still the case, but about a year ago I was told by some generator people that the state of Louisiana sells more whole house generators than the rest of the country combined. And it makes sense. Except I was floored about Florida. I would have thought Florida would have been up there with us too, but they're not. They're saying, say, Louisiana has more than the rest of the state. I don't know if that's still the case.
Speaker 4:They have nice balconies and beaches there and maybe that's why they don't do it. More hurricane parties maybe I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:And I don't know if that's still the case it and Chip here actually had brought to me shoot. Well, several years ago he had brought to me some newspaper articles that had actually happened in Louisiana of carbon monoxide poisoning. After that, myself, chip and our fire chief, danny Campbell, we had kind of gotten together with the administration and wrote an ordinance that required carbon monoxide detectors within the city of Zachary if you put in a generator. That is now state law. They didn't follow the state, didn't follow Louisiana. We just we did it in Zachary and then eventually other cities started doing the same thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because you can actually and this has actually happened in one of the articles Chip had given me, I think it was in Kenner, I don't know somewhere, and someone had put in a generator and the house still filled with carbon monoxide. What happened was you don't control mother nature. The generator was running and how, still filled up because, said about mother nature, the wind was blowing. I'm just gonna say out of the north. Well, the exhaust was running and the whole time the wind was blowing. I'm just going to say out of the North, well, the exhaust was running and the whole time the wind was blowing. It was pushing that exhaust and it actually had went through a fixed pane glass window on a kitchen that you know nobody.
Speaker 2:Just, yeah, how many people go, and I told you this earlier this morning how many people go back and re-cock their windows. Right, I'm an inspector, I look for caulk on new construction and I haven't re-caulked my own personal windows. I mean, it's kind of out of sight, out of mind. Yeah, so the cracks in the caulk had formed and carbon monoxide made its way, and doing some research with chip, we found that there was another one that the same thing, everything had done correctly, everything was, uh, inspectedpected proper clearances, and it actually had leaked up through the soffit vents in your house. Because, again, you don't control the way Mother Nature is blowing the wind during a storm.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's another thing and a lot of people think, oh, I already got a carbon monoxide detector. No, you don't. A lot of houses they think they do, but it's just a smoke. It's not carbon, it's totally different. A lot of newer houses I don't remember when the code changed, probably about 10 years ago maybe so the code changed that required if you had gas appliances or a garage, you had to have a carbon monoxide detector outside of the bedrooms. So some people had them outside of the bedrooms, didn't have them inside. Well, where do you sleep? In your bedroom? Yeah, If your bedroom's the first place filling up with carbon monoxide, you're already asleep, and if your door's shut, it's not going to trip the carbon monoxide detector out in the hallway. Yeah, yeah. So actually here, recently, the state it was probably about six, eight months ago. Recently, the state it was probably about six, eight months ago the state put an emergency rule that said you had to have them in every sleeping room and in the immediate vicinity and it's just purely for safety.
Speaker 2:A lot of new construction homes have a. They have the smoke alarms that are already wired directly in it. You don't have to buy a special carbon monoxide detector, you can actually go to the store and get a combo and just unscrew that one out and put a new combo in. Yeah, and it's all hardwired. It's the same. Some people have gone in and said that for a while they were using the plug-ins that you can plug into a receptacle carbon monoxide. That was allowed until recently. The state said no more, because your receptacles are down low. Okay, Carbon dioxide is starting to top coming. It's got to fill up the whole room before it trips the hallway. Yeah, and on top of it, if your power I mean your generator's running, but power may be out yeah, it revolves around whether your receptacle works. So they kind of did away with all this and all of it's. This public safety. I mean carbon monoxide is a silent killer.
Speaker 5:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:And there are going to be people out there that probably want some sort of safeguard or inspection after this. Are there resources to have a fireman? Just kind of look at things with you, or is that?
Speaker 2:No, firemen don't really get involved unless the carbon monoxide detectors start getting tripped. You start hearing the beep, beep, beep. Then definitely call the fire department because they have a gauge and they can come out there and and and do it and say you know, this is your parts per million of carbon monoxide.
Speaker 2:You got testing positives need to get out yeah, yeah so, but no, just during the inspection process you, um other than some of the ladies in in the office, I'd venture to say most of your dealings will either be with me or chip.
Speaker 4:Okay, all right yeah, uh, we're gonna pass the mic to jen, to Jen.
Speaker 5:All right, it's Jen. Oh, thank you. Okay, I have a couple of follow-up questions. The first one I have a friend in Americana who was looking to get a generator installed and she was not able to because of the Clearances Exactly. So can you talk briefly about the clearances required for generator install?
Speaker 2:So it all depends on what you're putting it up against. If you have, like a brick wall or stucco, something that's fireproof, you can go up to 18 inches. It used to be on the windows. The code didn't specify it. It said it can't be within five feet of any openings. Some people are saying, well, this is a fixed window, it doesn't really open. Well, yeah, but it's still a penetration. And I actually had emailed the state to get clarification and they said the state does not differentiate between whether the window is operable or not, it just says openings and technically that is an opening. Just like what we said about what happened in Kenner. It was a fixed pane window but it was still the solid. The caulk around it still allowed carbon monoxide to go through.
Speaker 5:I believe her issue was more about the lot lines and the space between houses and it abutting a neighbor's lot line.
Speaker 2:That could happen if you're in a subdivision with a very close lot line. A lot of Americana houses are about five feet from the property line. So if you're five feet from the property line to the edge and then you've got to come out at least 18, depending on where you put it at least 18 inches off of the house, it's giving you three and a half feet. Now you've got to take into account how wide the generator itself is. I could see where on some I didn't know that's happened, but I could see where some people was like you can't because you're going to cross over a property line.
Mike G:Jen, I went to a round table and listened to a generator contractor that talked about specifically about clearances and how difficult it is to find the perfect situation for an install, because the generator manufacturers are voiding warranties if they don't have the proper clearances for whether it's a fence that the neighbor may build up against the generator that their neighbor has installed.
Mike G:Then they go back and void warranties because that fence is too close. And that is an issue that they're trying to find a way on each house to be able to install it with all of the clearances that are now required, whether it's an actual, you know an ordinance or you know a state law, or if it's a manufacturer's warranty clearance. And one of the things that he said is a real issue is a lot of people, after they have their generators installed, the first thing that they want to do is cover that thing up from view from the street. So they build this little shield or fence or you know a screen around it so that you can't see it. But those things are air cooled and they also exhaust an extremely large amount of heat from them when they're operating and those things will overheat pretty easy if they don't have the proper ventilation, and he said that that is a real problem and educating the consumer about it is one of the challenges that they have.
Speaker 2:I would like to commend whoever the generator people were, you know, because unfortunately there's a lot of people out there that might have told your friend, oh, it'll be fine, because they want to get the money. So, whoever they were, I commend them for the honesty of saying look, you can't do it, you're not going to meet the clearances. There are issues. You've got to have clearances away from your electrical panel. You've got to have clearances away from our gas meters For us to be able to work on them. You've got to have clearances away from your windows, especially if they're bedroom windows, because that's technically an egress. In the case of emergency, you can get out the window. So, yeah, I could see we're having in very close quarters neighborhoods that it would come up as an issue.
Speaker 5:Yeah, for sure. Well, that kind of brings me to my next question. So if someone is looking to get a generator installed, can you give me some do's and don'ts? So, for instance, if they're not going through the proper channels and getting it permitted, what are they doing? Just finding a guy that they know to hook it up? Or I mean, are people just going out and buying these on their own and finding somebody to hook them up.
Speaker 2:Some people have thought they were handymen and have bought probably off a Facebook marketplace or Costco or something, and bought one and said there's nothing to it, I can hook it up. I'm not realizing the other stuff involved in it. There there was many, many, many years ago. There was a guy we never did catch him and I don't know where he's at now. But Zachary, me and Zachary and, uh, carrie chauvin, who was the building official at the time of baton rouge. We were both trying to catch because he was doing it all over baton rouge too. And tell you how long ago was, if y'all remember the uh, the tune-in show, the the around town the round happening show. He was on their show doing an interview.
Speaker 2:I was going to work one morning. I see him on there and I'm calling Carrie. He's like oh my gosh, I'm about to go to the mall right now and catch this guy. Like. This guy was going on TV and advertising his company. He was not licensed. It wasn't even licensed with the state, so don't know whatever happened to the guy. Unfortunately, he had a few in Zachary that we caught later when they didn't work. He had a few in Zachary that we caught later when they didn't work and you know it was like who did this? And they gave him the name. I was like, yeah, he's not even a licensed contractor.
Speaker 5:So we need to be asking for proof of license and insurance, yeah, license insurance.
Speaker 2:And look the main thing, I wouldn't even do that. You can just say I want to see the copy of the permits Because when you permit it through the city of Zachary, we're doing that work for you. We're checking to make sure they're licensed, that they have all the proper credentials of electrical, mechanical they have their insurance, their bond.
Speaker 2:We make sure that we do all that for you. I mean knock yourself out if you want to, but if you just say show me a copy of the permit that guarantees, because we wouldn't have given them a permit without it.
Mike G:But the biggest do I'm going to tell you is to make sure it's permitted, and they're also turning in a basically a little mini plot plan of where that generator is going to be located.
Speaker 2:So, uh, you know he's checking those clearances from our side as well so what will typically happen is the generator people will come, they'll pull their permit um, they'll contact the power company. The power company will schedule a disconnect for their meter. They'll disconnect the meter, they'll hook it up. They call me. I go out there, I do a gas test to make sure that the new gas line they were in is holding, it's not leaking. I do the electrical and I look for the carbon monoxide. If it doesn't pass, we let your generator people know this is what needs to happen, this is what you need to fix, and then they'll call us back when it's fixed and we'll double check it. If it passes right off the bat, my office then signs off on it. We send it over to Chip, let Chip know it's okay and then he starts his process with installing a bigger size gas meter. Am I correct on that?
Speaker 4:That's right, all right, all right guys on that. That's right, all right, all right guys. I think that's an excellent place to wrap. Uh, scott masterson and chip troth everybody, scott, you got one more I got uh.
Speaker 2:One more quick thing I'd like to say, if you had to all your listeners out there. If they have any questions, please feel free to call our office. You my, the inspections office is 654-6873. We're open monday through th, 7 to 5.30. If you don't want to call, feel free to shoot me an email. It's scottmasterson at cityofzacharyorg. Yeah.
Speaker 4:If you didn't get a permit, just say you listen to PNP and you'd like a little amnesty with Scott. I promise he's not a scary guy and he really does care about this city. So just approach him and tell him what's up and keep everybody safe and keep some money in your pocket. So again, you can find them both at cityofzacharyorg, with their contacts there, and you can catch PNP on local newsstand and on our website, porchandparishcom. Thanks to our community partners who make this podcast, the magazine and everything you see online possible and free. All right, thanks for joining us and don't forget to share this podcast with a friend. Bye-bye now.
