Porch and Parish The Podcast
Our mission is to make sure every Zachary resident feels heard and engaged! Host Mike Gennaro facilitates candid conversations with local leaders, influencers and innovators in Zachary, Louisiana and beyond with the help of producer Mike Holt. New episode every Monday at noon!
Porch and Parish The Podcast
StrongHeart: Insights from Jill Rigby Garner of Manners of the Heart
Discover how to foster respect and kindness in today's world with insights from Jill Rigby Garner, founder of Manners of the Heart. Jill shares her transformative journey from personal challenges to establishing a nonprofit that’s influenced over 200,000 students, schools, and families globally. We delve into her latest book, "StrongHeart," which offers guidance on embedding respect, kindness, and integrity into daily interactions. You'll hear some amusing personal stories, including the joys and surprises of raising twins and Jill's love for Talenti sea salt caramel gelato.
In an inspiring conversation, we explore the evolution of Manners of the Heart, an endeavor that goes beyond mere etiquette to instill deeper respect and heart-driven attitudes. Jill shares the trials and triumphs of maintaining this mission over the years, from transitioning to online curriculums to overcoming common nonprofit hurdles like fundraising. We discuss the importance of adapting to new educational formats and the organization's global reach, including connections with schools in Uganda and Mexico City. You'll gain valuable insights into balancing a nonprofit's mission with necessary business aspects.
Finally, we tackle the essential role of parenting in cultivating respect and humility in children, introducing concepts like the "Ruby Rule" and "humble confidence." Jill offers wisdom on how parents can model behaviors that their children will emulate, emphasizing transparency and the importance of fathers in shaping a child's self-perception. We also touch on heartwarming family traditions and discuss the ongoing impact of Jill's work through books and seminars. Tune in to explore how cultivating these values can create a more respectful and connected community.
I'm Jill Garner. Keep listening to the Porch and Parish podcast.
Jen G:Welcome to Porch and Parish the podcast. I'm your host, jen Gennaro, and today we have a truly special guest joining us, jill Rigby Garner, founder of Manners of the Heart. Jill is a nationally acclaimed author and speaker whose work emphasizes the importance of respect, kindness and integrity in every interaction, starting with building a solid foundation with our youngest generation. Today, we'll be talking about the mission behind Manners of the Heart and the impact the program has had on more than 200,000 students, schools and families over the past 20 plus years. We'll also be discussing Jill's latest book, strongheart. So grab your coffee, settle in and let's get ready to learn from Jill about how we can all build a better, more respectful world, one small action at a time. This is Porch and Parish the podcast.
Mike:Keep listening, we'll be right back.
Speaker 4:At Porch and Parish we're gearing up for our highly anticipated winter issue, hitting mailboxes and stands in mid-January. If you've been looking for a way to reach the Zachary community, now is the time to secure your spot. Ad space is available and this issue is going to be a must-read. Just email editor at porchandparishcom for our media kit and pricing details. Whether you're a local business organization or just have a message to share, we've got the perfect placement for you and, as always, we want to hear from you. Have a feature story idea or know someone with an inspiring tale? Send it our way. Help us shine a light on what makes our community so special. Porch and Parish Zachary's community magazine and podcast excellent, living, engaging stories.
Jen G:So first up our lightning round. You are the mother of grown twins, correct?
Jill:Yes, Did you?
Jen G:ever attempt matching outfits? Or was it a lost cause after a certain age?
Jill:Did you ever attempt matching outfits, or was it a lost cause after a certain age? Well, the truth is, up until the age of two I dressed them in the same outfit, but different colors. But I always did a little trick for my own benefit, and that was I always put boys in blue so that I wouldn't get them confused, because the B for boys for blue, and then if the one was in blue it was always boys. Just to give me a little extra assurance, I'd get it right, okay.
Jen G:So be honest, did you ever mix them up and not figure it out until later? I won't tell anybody.
Jill:No, we won't tell anybody. We won't tell a soul, except everybody who's listening today. Um, I did, I confess I did. It was actually really kind of funny. I did it more than once, once, but I'll only. I'll only tell you the one time. Okay, once, the one time that I did it.
Jill:Um, so, um, I was in the kitchen cooking supper and the knob on the television kept going up and the sound kept going louder and louder and I stepped, stepped around the corner and said don't touch the knob again. And I stepped back in. Of course, soon as I did, it goes up again. So I come back out and I said I said so the third time. I came out and I said, all right, and I took the one that was closest to the TV, put him next to the sofa, sitting next to the other brother, and just fuss and fuss and boy, mom said da, da, da, da and from now on da-da-da-da.
Jill:And the other one was just laughing his head off and I said you know, it could have been you that got in trouble, chad. Well, what was so funny is it was actually Chad who had been turning the knob, and so I was fussing at him, but I was calling him Boyce, you see. But I thought it was Boyce in the moment, anyway. They thought it was voice in the moment, anyway. They thought it was hysterically funny, anyway. So I got very frustrated and I said well, you know what, sooner or later, you're both going to get in trouble. So right now, everybody's in trouble. Go to your corner, sit in the corners for five minutes, and I'll be back, because they're very identical, right.
Jill:They are very identical. Yeah yeah, their friends never got them confused very often, but adults have always gotten them confused Always.
Jen G:Okay, so our next question what is your current favorite snack obsession? Oh, that's very easy Talenti sea salt caramel gelato. Oh really, oh yes, oh, I'm obsessed with these wild protein chicken chips. Have you heard of these?
Jill:I don't know that I want to.
Jen G:Oh, Mike teases me all the time, but I eat them every night. So they're they're made out of chicken and they're protein chips and they're delicious and they have all the weird flavors that I like, like salt and vinegar, or buffalo. Okay, they're delicious, but every time I'm like mid bite he'll say I like, like salt and vinegar or buffalo, oh okay, they're delicious, but every time I'm like mid-bite, he'll say something like you know, they just scrape those up off the factory floor or something like just to gross me out.
Jill:Oh yeah, doesn't sound appealing to me, oh well they're wonderful.
Jen G:So more for me. All right, last question of the lightning round. What is your dream vacation? Mountains or beach? So easy.
Jill:The beach. No, I'm sorry. Why did I say that? No, it's the mountains. Wait, why did I say that it is the mountains and it's the colder the better? I don't know why. We live in South Louisiana because my husband and I both love the mountains. We just got back from Colorado Springs and we were so disappointed that we were there the week before the snow came, because the snow came last week and we had been there just the week before. But we love the mountains. Our favorite spot really is the spot that just took such a hard hit, and that's in North Carolina. Oh, us too. That's our favorite Highlands, cashers, asheville, that whole area, that's my very favorite place in the world.
Jen G:Yeah, mine too. I used to work up there every summer at a summer camp. Love it, I know.
Jill:Okay, anyway I was camp mom one summer.
Jen G:Where.
Jill:Which camp I stayed at Chasatanga. Oh, I was at Catalina. Oh well, that's where. I remember the boys being there, Boyce and Chad. They went there several years.
Jen G:They were junior counselors one year.
Speaker 4:Okay, so I must have just missed them because I only went my college summers, and so I was just a counselor.
Jen G:Oh my gosh.
Jill:Yeah, love the truffins, love that.
Mike:I was the cook with art. Jen got me a job yeah that was a summer.
Jen G:We had just met, we were dating. He came up to camp oh that was fun. I came up to camp oh that was fun.
Mike:I got a different experience. I didn't see much mountains.
Jill:Yeah, uh-oh.
Mike:Yeah, more meatloaf than mountains.
Jill:There are a lot of marriages that have come out of camp. Did you know that? I know, yeah, a lot, a lot, a lot.
Jen G:Wonderful people. Yes, all right, so let's get into it. Let's get into the mission of Manners of the Heart. So, kind of give us a quick background, tell us how and when the idea first came to you and what is the mission of the organization.
Jill:Well, when Boyce and Chad, my sons, started first grade, started coming to their elementary school cafeteria. In answer to the question of what's happened, there's no manners, the kids are unruly and there's nothing that resembles manners. And so I had an idea Well, couldn't someone come once a week, walk around the tables and bring paper napkins, and bring plastic forks and start teaching? And so when I brought that up at a parent' meeting, our very astute principal said well, what day next week are you coming, jill Right. So for the next five years I did, and I came once a week, and then it got to be twice a week. And then, by about the third year, teachers were asking me to come in their classrooms and let's teach thank you notes or teach introductions and all of the kind of what we think of as manners or common courtesies. And by that point it was bothering me, because for me that's etiquette. Those are rules that we learn to follow, but that's etiquette, that's not manners. To me, manners is a much deeper definition, that it's really the attitude of the heart that's behind the action and it's really a self-giving motivation behind your actions rather than a self-serving motivation. And so manners is really the attitude behind the actions. And so as I started getting deeper into those thoughts and started doing some research of why is all this so important anyway, it really came full circle for me that really teaching manners and working on those attitudes behind the actions really has to be rooted in respect, and that's really what it's all about is respectful actions and respectful attitudes toward others and so started digging much deeper into all of that and the lessons took a deeper turn and got the parents involved and started writing notes to the parents about here's some things you might could do at home to reinforce the lesson I'm teaching at school and all of that. And then we hit fifth grade and we were moving on to middle school and it still was on little notes I had written and scribbled on paper and dropped in a shoebox where I just kept my notes because I had no clue it was going to be my life's work yet.
Jill:And that summer between fifth and sixth grade, my husband left us and left us behind. And so there I was with two middle school boys and me and I had been an interior designer, had been my college degree and profession stepped back into that, and it became very clear very quickly that's not where I was meant to be, for many different reasons. And so for the next two years I stayed on my knees and I would go and do my things at the church and with the boys in school and all, and then get back in the corner and say so Lord, what is it I'm supposed to do with my life? I've got to do something. I can't keep staying in the corner and getting up and coming back and all the while people were calling because I was Ms Manners and somebody would call and I'd go talk to a Boy Scout troop or a Girl Scout troop or somebody's school. And finally I got really angry one night and I told God I wasn't going to talk to him anymore until he put it in black and white and made it clear what I was supposed to do with my life and I'd do whatever he wanted me to do. But I had to know what it was, because I couldn't figure it out.
Jill:And the next day I picked up in Alberts. I was in Albertson's grocery store, picked up a magazine, a Woman's Day magazine, which I still kept, and there the magazine said manners, where have they gone? Kid you not. And I said well, I don't answer that problem. I've got that. And there was the epiphany oh my goodness, wait, everybody's calling. Schools have been calling, wanting to know what happened. Things have changed since you're not here and these lessons have disappeared. And what are we going to do? And I went oh my gosh, okay, well, I'm not a speaker, I'm not a writer, I'm not an educator, I'm not a psychologist. So where do I start? And that was the beginning. That was in 1998. And I took about two years to write the first curriculum, interviewing lots of teachers, lots of principals living at School, aids, which Holy rip School Aids.
Jen G:It's shut down now right.
Jill:Jamie Fernberg was so kind to me, take whatever you need just, and I would go live there for hours and I'd take books home and look at curricula and how does this organized? And anyway, and don't you know that? Uh, the nea conference national education association was in new orleans, of course that next year. So I got a, put it out there and over a hundred sold, over a hundred curriculum kits. And a little school, a little school in California and one in Virginia, and these, you know, little school or a classroom teacher would buy kit. And that's where it all started.
Jen G:So you wrote a curriculum and then you sold that. What were you? How much were you selling it for?
Jill:Oh, let's see. At that point I think it was $149. Wow, something like that. And about two years later I said this is the mission of a nonprofit, that's what this is all about. And I found it Manners of the Heart as a nonprofit organization and I really haven't looked back since.
Jen G:That is fantastic. I love that. I'm inspired, but we'll circle back to that. It's not about me, right? Okay, so how has the organization changed since its inception?
Jill:We have grown. Hopefully, we had better have grown in 20 years. We're in our 22nd year now. What's been interesting? I think about Manners of the Heart. People around us have said one reason that we have survived this long as a nonprofit because 80% of nonprofits are gone within five years. The first five years it's even higher than that. In the last five years it's even gotten higher than that why do you think that percentage?
Jill:um, it's, the non-profit world is so difficult, um, and it's not really the rules and regulations as much as it is, um, trying to fulfill your mission while having to raise the funds in order to fulfill your mission. But how much time you must spend to raise the funds in order to fulfill your mission. But how much time you must spend to raise the funds, you know that takes away from the fulfillment of the mission. Right, and it, um, it's, it's a very difficult it's, it's, and, and you're reliant on. We're fortunate that we have something we can sell so we can have some self-generated revenue. So we're not a charity where we're totally dependent on, you know, the generosity of folks, but even with that it's just not enough hours in a day, you know, to do it all and to do it well. That's the hard part, to do it well. But so most nonprofits don't make it beyond five years. Like I said, 80% don't make it past five years.
Jill:So those around us who watch us and have watched us for a long time have said they believe the reason we've survived for so long is because we've never lost sight of our mission, of our original mission. We've never lost sight of it and so it's kept us on course and it's kept us kind of pure and it's kept us solid and it's helped us to make some wise decisions of what to say yes to and what to say no to. So it's kept us solid and it's helped us to make some wise decisions of what to say yes to and what to say no to. So it's uh, it's helped us, but to survive.
Jill:But back to your original question how have we changed? What's I find most interesting about manager? The heart is we've really we've never changed our message, nor have we changed our mission. But our message hasn't changed, nor will it ever change, because our message doesn't change according to how society changes or how thoughts come and go, or the latest parenting trend, or the new wave of psychology, or the new guru who's hit the scene and has a new answer. You know, because what we teach is timeless, is timeless truth.
Jen G:Has the curriculum adapted at all because of technology and loans and all that stuff?
Jill:Yes, we have most definitely adapted. When COVID hit, of course we already had the curriculum online. Of course it was in print, obviously from the beginning. Of course it was in print, obviously from the beginning. But we had already pivoted, probably two years before COVID, so that a teacher who had the curriculum materials, print materials, could go online and pull it all up online in PDF form. And so we were already at that point then, and in fact we're in another pivot right now, of even doing more online. It's a. The curriculum itself is story based, and so we're right now in the process of pulling the stories out of the curriculum and making them children's books, along with animation. That's our big dream, because we do want to reach every kid in America. That's been true since the beginning.
Jen G:So to that point, are you guys outside of the Baton Rouge region?
Jill:Oh, we are yeah we're all over the country and we have a wonderful school in Kampala, uganda, that we've worked with. This is the fifth year that we've worked with them. It is. I had a text from the WhatsApp, I guess Is that a?
Jill:text Is that considered a text and we go back and forth on WhatsApp, yesterday from Wilford Rugumba, who is the head of school there, and it's Mercy Child Care Center. It's just a precious school and the kids often send us videos because they love to write original songs and they'll write a song and perform. It is just the most precious thing the, the dialect and the accent and it's just and even the. They give a new um, the, the way in which they pronounce and speak the word respect and especially when they sing, it just takes you, just totally unglues you. It takes the whole idea of respect to another level. It's like it's ethereal or something, the way they say it. It's just beautiful.
Jen G:Will you send me that? I'd love to somehow incorporate that.
Jill:Oh, I'll send you that video. It's precious. They're on the porch. They're on the porch.
Speaker 4:They're on the porch of the school.
Jill:That's precious. And then we're also in a wonderful school in Mexico City.
Jen G:Like those early curriculum that you sold at those trade shows or conferences. Do you track that Like? Do you know if your program is still implemented nationwide?
Jill:Oh, what a hard question. We try, we try as best we can. You know, one of the toughest parts of education, no matter what you're trying to do in education, is the turnover when a new administration comes in, and so often whatever was is now gone, whether it's successful or not. We have found that to be true time and time and time again. Then you go back to ground zero and you start all over again. You convince the new folks in charge that, yes, it's as wonderful as they said, and no, you don't need a different curriculum. This you know anyways. It's always an uphill channel, Always. And yes, some schools we have tracked, you know, for a long time. Many schools we haven't, you know, we haven't been able to, you know. And our curriculum materials are also sold online, like through Amazon. And our curriculum materials are also sold online like through Amazon, and we're not privy to their sales information. That's not shared. So that makes it interesting too.
Jen G:Well, let's get a little bit more into what Manners of the Heart is. So the organization focuses its work on the emotional wellness of children through heart education.
Jill:Can you explain that? So when you have an understanding, as we do, that the content of the heart, whether it's good, bad or ugly, determines what a child will think, say or do, that's where you begin to gain an understanding of what we mean by heart education, because we firmly believe that the education of the heart must be, should be, the heart of education, because everything else comes out of that. You know, in the last 50 years or so, we've really focused on pouring knowledge into kids' heads and all the STEM education and we've put boxes, as my mother used to call the computers. We've put boxes of every size, shape and form in front of kids and we've put them in front of the boxes and thinking that technology is going to do it. But the truth is, when you look across education as anyone that has children or anyone who is on the outside looking in, it's been a miserable failure and our education system is not where it needs to be. When you compare children in the United States to children internationally, there is no comparison. I mean, people who don't know would assume the American kids are on the top in every category and that we are in the third and sometimes in the bottom third in every comparison you can think of in literacy, mathematics, science. Go down the list and you know what's happened.
Jill:You know there's something terribly wrong and what we espouse is that we neglected the education of the heart.
Jill:And until you unlock a child's heart, their mind is not going to open to receive the knowledge that a teacher has to impart to them. But the beautiful news is, when you do unlock the heart and there's a heart-to-heart connection made with a child, now their mind will open to receive that information you're trying to teach them. But so for us the education of the heart really is core. It is the core of core curriculum because everything else comes out of that. There was a research study done by Southeastern did a research study on the energy of the Heart a few years ago and they found a 28 to 58 percent reduction in discipline referrals when a school implemented Manage of the Heart with Fidelity With Fidelity is the key to everything in education and they also had a 15-point gain in their academic achievement. Didn't surprise us at all. But we now have the statistical data to prove that when you work on unlocking the heart and education of the heart, everything else falls into place, and when you don't do that, nothing falls into place.
Jen G:Can you give us an example of how the principles are implemented into a teacher's classroom? Sure Well, we first start with professional development into a teacher's classroom.
Jill:Sure, Well, we first start with professional development, and we really ask that every adult on campus attends our professional development training, because our goal is that every interaction a child has with an adult on campus is a good one and is one of quality. And so everyone attends cafeteria workers, the janitorial staff, the bus drivers, everybody attends. And what we work on, well, okay. So everyone attends the professional development training. And then the way the curriculum itself is implemented is that every morning the administrator has a morning announcement and we provide those because each morning goes along with the lesson being taught that day. And, just like math or science, we introduce a new concept on Mondays and there are lessons five days a week that are taught based on that concept. Like I said, just like math or science, I mean, a math teacher is not going to present a new concept on Monday and not bring it up again during the week and give a test on Friday and expect the children to have learned anything right.
Jill:Same thing is true with Manners of the Heart. So there's many different forms of lessons. Sometimes it's an activity, it's a game, it's a song. They do lots of different activities to keep it interesting, you know, in a way of reinforcing the heart attribute. And so on Mondays there's a heart attribute and two heart attributes. Most weeks that's introduced, and that's introduced through a story, and it's called the Maryville Stories. Maryville is this idyllic little town between the mountains and the sea. It's the place every heart yearns to be Wise. Old Wilbur lives in the one and only apple tree.
Speaker 4:He's always been there and he always will be.
Jill:Did you write that I did? He's always been there and he always will be. Did you write that I did? And, yes, I love Maryville, my boys they were in high school, middle school and high school when I was writing all this and they would knock on the door and say, mom, are you in Baton Rouge or Maryville? We need you in Baton Rouge at the moment. And I'd say, hold on a minute, and I'd go walk in the back of the house and come back out. Okay, I'm home, boy, what you need, because I love living in Maryville.
Jill:It's very idyllic and intentionally that way, because one of the things that's missing in the lives of children today is idealism. You know, more times than not, what they see depicted of human beings on TV or anything on the internet or wherever they're looking, is often the worst of us, it's not the best of us, and we've forgotten that we need to give children something to aspire to, something bigger than themselves, something better than themselves, and that's what Maryville is all about is how life could be meant to be, should be. And so a new story is introduced every Monday that shows those qualities, those attributes we're trying to work on for the week and then you know, like I said, we have different activities during the week to reinforce that. The same heart attributes are introduced each week from pre-K all the way to second grade and some schools up to fifth grade, and um the lessons are age appropriate. You know, they build on each other um as the children grow, um so the uh introduction and the um implementation of the lesson changes. But the whole school then is working on the same hard attributes every week, no matter what grade level.
Jill:And it's also um the homeroom teacher, the classroom teacher, really is the one primarily responsible in most schools. It's very adaptable. Some schools have different things, but for the most part that's the one primarily responsible. Some schools the guidance counselor will do the introductory lesson on Monday and then the classroom teacher will do the reinforcement lesson. So there are different ways to do it. And then there's also a very strong home connection piece, as I mentioned. I did early on, and so every week, digitally, a home connection letter goes home saying here's what we're working on this week. Here's the hard attributes Ask your student to tell you this, this and this. We give them questions to ask and then we give them activities and things to do at home reminders that they can do at home to reinforce the lesson being taught in the school. Last year we introduced a new little animated piece, so now every week has a little short animated introduction to that story and that week's lesson that the kids can watch at home with their parents.
Jen G:That's sweet, so, speaking of at home with their parents. If you could just give one piece of advice to our listeners who are parents what is one thing that parents can begin doing today to implement in their homes? That would kind of help facilitate the principles that are taught through Manners of the Heart.
Jill:I would probably start with the Ruby Rule, and it's something that we came up with and we all know. The golden rule right Treat others the way you want to be treated. The Ruby Rule is to respect others the way you want to be respected, and that begins with the marital relationship. That's where it begins is the idea of you know I'm going to be respected and that begins with the marital relationship. That's where it begins is the idea of you know I'm going to be respectful of you and you'll be respectful of me, and the children will see that you know to begin to lead by example in us and we'll be respectful of the children and the children will be respectful of us, and one thing I often say is that, um, disrespect is something that needs to be called out and dealt with in the moment, instantaneously, whenever there is.
Jill:I remember growing up if my mother said something and my shoulder elevated a little, I mean daddy would say do I see something going on over there? What is that? What would you think? Think something different than what your mother said? Or if your eyes rolled.
Jill:Any form of disrespect needs to be called out, not in a harsh ugly way, but I call it persuasive. Pressure is what I teach parents, which is discipline, not punishment. Punishment is often given, is fear-based, and it's often done in anger in a moment. But all punishment does is make a kid feel rotten. They made a mistake. But you miss the effectiveness of a punishment when it's punishment rather than discipline. An effective discipline is an action taken to change an inappropriate behavior. So when you punish a kid for doing wrong and think about it, if you're trying to instill goodness, kindness, respectfulness, if you're trying to instill respect in them and they're barked at for being disrespectful, a child looks at that and says okay. So what does it look like? Is that what it looks like? Is that respect, you know, but when it's done with persuasive pressure. By that I mean you use do not, don't. So instead of don't do, blah, blah, blah. Don't fill in the blank. It's instead of doing this, we're going to do this, and you always give the alternative. So you're always giving the right behavior to replace the wrong behavior.
Jill:That's persuasive pressure, consistent and persistent reminders, and beyond that, in the earliest, youngest children. I'll give you two things. Say, we have a three or four year old and we're going to begin teaching how to keep their room clean. Well, if you're going to instill respect, then you have to instill an other-centered perspective in your child. And so, rather than say we're going to keep our shoes on the floor in the closet, we're going to keep the stuffed animals on the bottom shelf so your room's not a mess. No, we're going to say so that no one comes in and trips over it. We're going to connect you. We're going to say so that no one comes in and trips over it. We're going to connect. You see the difference? Yeah, we're going to connect what we're asking of our children, the expectation of how it affects those around them, so that they begin to have this other-centered perspective of how their actions affect those around them, either in a positive or negative way. So that's one thing, and the other thing is, since we're all in the South, I love it. I did an interview this morning with a woman in New Jersey and I said I know you're not going to like this, but I'm going to say it anyway why is it that yes sir and no sir, and yes ma'am and no ma'am are considered as such a Southern thing? That's so wrong.
Jill:That is the best, best, easiest, most important way of instilling respect in children and a respect for authority. And when you start it young, it's absolutely incredible. When it is present, the difference it makes in preventive parenting, because it sets in place the understanding there's a difference between children and adults. It sets in place a respect for authority which translates far beyond that relationship with you and your child. It translates into oh, this is how I'm supposed to speak to all adults. Oh, I'm supposed to listen when an adult speaks to me, it translates well. And when it is not present, and yes, sir and no sir, yes, women are not taught you set yourself up for a much more difficult pathway to helping your children gain respect for adults and to gain respect for authority and then it becomes a rule they have to follow, rather than becoming a part of who they are and understanding that we give respect because respect is meant to be given.
Jen G:That's so good. I do feel like we have we've done pretty well with that. I mean, I grew up in a family that was very yes sir, no sir, and it's like nails on a chalkboard. If a kid says yeah, what do you call them? Okay, so when you first began this, you were not a writer, educator, speaker. And now, how many books have you published? Well, it's not a writer, educator speaker.
Jill:And now, how many books have you published? Well, it's all in. How you want to count it, there's seven curriculum manuals and three parenting books.
Jen G:This is a beautiful book, so I am holding strong heart, cultivating humility, respect and resiliency in your Child, which just came out recently, right, july, july, okay. So can you? Well, strong heart? That's something that you've said before in your curriculum, right? Okay? So can you kind of tell us how you define that and what's the premise of a strong heart?
Jill:Well, I love to tell that story and it's kind of interesting that you've just done a story on Diane Lipscomb, because it was Diane Lipscomb's school in Baton Rouge that where strong heart first came to me. That thought just went through my mind that's a neat coincidence and she had asked me to be the fifth grade commencement speaker. I was so honored I can say I've been a commencement speaker for fifth grade. And so as I was working on what do these fifth graders need to hear? They had had Manners of the Heart at their school for five years. So these were Manners of the Heart kids and their discipline, referrals had gone down, academics had come up, things were rocking and rolling, and so I thought what do they need to hear before they go to middle school? That's what I need to speak into their hearts at their fifth grade graduation. And so by the time I got to the school and a couple of weeks later, strongheart had really formulated in my heart, but up until that point I had not been using that term in the curriculum. And so I took a whiteboard and I put it on an easel and I drew the outline of a strong heart with a big heart and put a little head and arms and turned him into a little character, and so I asked the kids today you're going to teach us because your manners are the hard kids. So if I told you this character is called strong heart, tell me what do you believe should be in the heart of a strong heart? Well, these fifth graders started saying things like obedience and compassion and respect and all these wonderful qualities, love and joy and kindness. And, oh goodness, all the teachers, and the parents particularly, were just beside themselves, and so I wrote in all those beautiful qualities and filled in his heart, and then I took a step back and I said, okay, looks like a pretty strong heart to me. Here's what you need to hear from me today.
Jill:You're going into middle school and a lot of kids in your life, even some of your closest friends, are going to get off track and they're going to try to pull you off track with them. And they're going to try to pull you off track with them, and they're going to try to get you into stuff that you know you shouldn't. You should say no to, but you know what. We all make mistakes and you're going to say yes, and when you do, I want you to see what happens to your heart. And so they gave me some scenarios which turned my head upside down, because they already knew the things they were going to be asked to do. And I said so. You said yes, and here's what happened. And I erased a piece of the outline of the heart, and so we removed the whole outline of the heart. And then I said so, you know, this is manager of the heart.
Jill:Kids, what's going to happen to all that good stuff if your heart's broken?
Jill:And they said it's going to fall out? And I said and what gets in when the good stuff falls out? And they said the bad stuff. I said what happens to love? And they said hate. I said what happens to respect, disrespect, and we flipped it all around, and now we had these awful heart attributes in front of us.
Jill:And so then I asked a question that gave an answer that stunned everyone in the room, and so I said so now who has our strong heart become? And a little boy raised his hand and he said oh, I bet he's a murderer. We all gasp, but you can never show surprise in front of kids or you'll lose them. I said well, you know what that could be. And a little girl on the front row said, oh, I bet she's really depressed.
Jill:And, as hard as it was to hear those answers, how amazing it is that these were fifth graders with that level of emotional maturity that they could understand, because they were absolutely right. They could understand the gravity of that moment, of what they were looking at, and I said, ok, well, here's the really tough question. And these were fifth graders who broke Strongheart's heart. There's silence. Finally a little hand went up. It was a little boy and he said he did. I said you're right. And then you heard she did, we did, we break our hearts and I said you got it, you got it. I mean, there's the accountability we hope every child understands, right, and especially going into middle school.
Jen G:And that's also taking ownership over your own decisions. Right, Completely Well, nowadays, all anybody ever talks about is mindfulness and having a strong mind, so you're kind of flipping it on its head, which is, I'm noticing, a trend. You know you like to pose words that are typically opposites right, I do. But why the emphasis on the heart rather than the mind?
Jill:Yes, because you know I'll tell you something interesting. Scientifically speaking, the actual physical manifestation of this is real. A lot of research has been done since about the 60s, sometime into the 70s, about the heart-mind connection and the physiology is really interesting because it is actually true that there's more I forgot what you call the word. There are more neurons, maybe, okay, going from the heart to the mind than from the mind to the heart. Things fire often, more often from the heart to the mind than they do from the mind to the heart, interesting heart to the mind than they do from the mind to the heart. And one of the things, like I mentioned earlier, is that what's in the heart, the content of the heart, whether it's good, whether it's bad or whether it's ugly, right, which is, you know, the good things that are there, the bad things that are there, or the things that have been done to a child that caused trouble that's what I mean by the ugliness Determines the content of the heart, determines what a child will think and what he will say and what he will do One day. A little second grade boy said Miss Jill, I got it. I said what you got and he said what comes out of here and he's pointing to his mouth, came from down in here and he pointed to his heart. I said, buddy, you got it, you got it.
Jill:And that's that's why I cringe when I hear so much discussion and I read I've. There's never a day that goes by that I'm not reading another, the latest, something right, and then this whole world, this whole area of of interest. But I cringe when I read something else about mindfulness, because we've got it upside down. We truly do. And again, the evidence, so sadly, is all around us. All of the statistics that we want to see go down, keep escalating, the anxiety, the depression, suicide, all of the things that our young adults and teenagers are dealing with today, all the numbers are going in the wrong direction. And yet, you know, I live frustrated. I say frustrated all the time because I know we have an answer. We can't get enough people to hear it.
Jen G:It starts at home, right, so it's something we can all do at home today. So you mentioned self-respect in your definition of strong heart, not self-esteem. What's the difference?
Jill:Go back again to the 60s and 70s. If we gave one person credit for telling us we needed self-esteem, it would be Carl Rogers, who was the grandfather of humanism. And the word self-esteem was actually coined in the 1890s kind of stayed nowhere, and then it popped up into the clinical circles around the 1920s to the 1940s and then when the 60s hit and everything went crazy which y'all have only heard about, but I know about. Everything went crazy which y'all have only heard about, but I know about when everything went wild, that's when Carl Rogers interjected into our society that you know what the kids didn't feel good about themselves. The 50s were too rigid. They had to break out and what they now need is to feel good about themselves. And that's what we need to do. And we have been doing that now, totally obsessed with the building of self-esteem, for 60 years or more. And again the roof is in the pudding, we were told.
Jill:The promises of self-esteem were that we would get along better because people would feel good about themselves. People would have tremendous confidence about themselves. People would have tremendous confidence. This is kind of almost funny to me. Anxiety would go down. Of course that's an epidemic problem today. The levels of anxiety, vitriol would go down, less violence. We would just be better people and more peaceful, and everyone would get along better and things would be good. If we esteemed ourselves Well, therein lies the problem, because that is the truest definition of self-esteem is the esteeming of self.
Jill:Now, we understood eons ago that vainglory vanity, pumping oneself up, was considered very in poor taste at the minimum and very damaging and dangerous at the at the most. Um, one of the foremost researchers in this whole world of um self-esteem was Roy Bymeister out of um, uh, florida, and then he moved to California later at Stanford. But he really was jumped on the self-esteem bandwagon in the 70s until he was involved in a five-year research study on why kids got into trouble at the age of 13, and by 20 they had a rap sheet and were hardened criminals. And what could we do to change that? The hypothesis was that they had low self-esteem and going into the study. Well, at the end of the study they found the converse to be true. It was high self-esteem that caused them to become criminals. It was the sense of entitlement. And you have shoes that I'll never have. I'm going to do what I've got to do to get those shoes. You have what I want. I can't see how I'm going to get it, so I'm going to take it.
Jen G:So high self-esteem can lead to just this. What was the word? You just Entitlement, entitlement, thank you. But then, going to the next point, you also talk about humble confidence a lot. So how do you strike the right balance between having healthy self-respect, self-esteem, but being humble.
Jill:Yes, so self-esteem and self-respect to me are polar opposites. Many think that they're synonyms, but they're not. They are absolutely polar opposites. Self-esteem comes from the esteeming of self, while self-respect comes from the esteeming of others. If you think about being faced with disrespect, well, our natural inclination is to hit back right. But if we choose to return respect when we've been met with disrespect, we actually are the stronger of the two people right in that interaction, because we are choosing to stand strong and not return disrespect with disrespect. So we're actually the stronger person. But what does it take to do that? It takes tremendous humility to be able to do that, and it's in those humble actions that we actually gain confidence. And I love to put those two words together. As you said, humble confidence. I love to put those two words together. As you said, humble confidence.
Jill:And interestingly, when we think about humility, many people think of a doormat or someone who just always puts someone else ahead of themselves. But truly, someone once said humility is not thinking of yourself. Thinking less of yourself is thinking of yourself less, which I love, that definition of humility. So it's not the idea of putting your head down and you know as we think of. You know, the little kid who's looking down and, you know, is scared and walking away. No, no, no, no. It's actually the one who is thinking of how can I serve others, how can I be the best that I can be? We don't think about it as a humble person, but truly it is. To give you just an example of that the Bible tells us that Moses most people, whatever your faith, understand Moses, know Moses, who led the people out of Egypt, a strong leader, and yet the Bible tells us that Moses was the most humble man on earth. Well, how can that be? It's because we've misconstrued the definition of humility.
Jill:Humility is actually strength. Humility is not a person of weakness and humility a truly humble person. It's more about your attitude, the reason behind what you're doing. So think of it in this way the kid who works really, really, really, really hard to become the best math student you know in the class. But the reason isn't so that he gets a trophy, because he could care less about a trophy. It's so that he can master that skill, because it comes easy for him and he can feel that he's good at it and it comes easy. But his motive isn't to get the trophy. It's so that he can feel that he's good at it and it comes easy. But his motive isn't to get the trophy, it's so that he can turn around and help the other kids who are struggling with it learn what he's learned. Oh, you see what I mean. Yeah, tremendous humility.
Mike:But he's the number one math kid in the class yeah, yeah humble confidence I have a practical question how many mirrors should a teenage girl have in her room?
Jill:One very small mirror, don't you think? One and I have no idea what you just brought me into here. It's not my fault.
Mike:It's not a debate. It's not an ongoing debate.
Jill:It's not my fault.
Mike:I was an only child. I grew up with a lot of mirrors in my room and I noticed, when you go places like vacation or like let's take camp, like Chasatonga, catalina, yeah, there are no mirrors, no, and you end up focusing on other important things in life. You know, it's almost like that's the first thing that came to mind here as far as raising my own kids. It's like they're very focused. They go in their rooms on their phones, on their devices. They look at themselves. They're not thinking about others, even though our kids are great.
Jill:Do you know that the analogy I use is the mirror or the window?
Mike:Interesting Okay.
Jill:Did you know that?
Mike:I heard you say it earlier though.
Jill:I've wondered. I was like, wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I think of the, the, the word picture that I give people the imagery that I like to give, because a lot of these concepts are very hard for people to grasp a young parents, because it's so counter-cultural, but we know it's to be timeless truth. But, um, if you think of the mirror of self-esteem and, um, you know, kids don't pick up a mirror. We put the mirror in front of them, we put a hand, them to them. But here's the deal if you're looking in a mirror, who do you see yourself right and who do you not see?
Jill:others right, because you can't see through the mirror. And in the mirror of self-esteem, kids can't see the possibilities of who they can become. They can see what's behind them in the mirror, right but they can't see what's in front of them. And here's the key that you were alluding to the longer a kid is being raised in the mirror of self-esteem, the more loss they get in themselves. And we know as ladies, right, we know as as ladies that, jen, that the longer you look in the mirror, the things look better or worse, typically not better.
Mike:Oh yeah, we get the 10x mirrors, so we can see like every pore too.
Jill:You know like I know, and then that little pin dot that you're trying to cover up is now the size of a quarter yeah it's like, oh gosh, and so what?
Jill:so what happens? The longer they get look in the mirror, they get lost in themselves and one of two things happen. Either they become entitled, right, self-conceited and it's going to be all about me, it's about me, it's about me and what am I going to get and what's what's coming my way tomorrow, what am I doing this weekend? And you know we're going shopping again and you know it's all about me. Or they become self-conceited because they I mean self-conscious, because they get lost in themselves and therein they fall into all of the wrong behaviors and everything we're trying to keep desperately to keep them away from. But it's not high and low self-esteem, it's the whole issue of being lost in the mirror, of self-esteem lost in the mirror oh gosh you have just given him so much ammo and I'm never gonna hear the end.
Mike:I'm so sorry I'm gonna go inside. Lucy, a parenting expert, told me that this is your new consequence if you are disrespectful, take your full-length mirror out.
Jen G:I'm so sorry, don't hate me okay, so you offer a strong word for dads and their role in the moral decline of our culture. How does that relate to raising a strong heart?
Jill:Okay, so Jen just got you back. I did, I did, jen just got you back. So I believe the greatest okay, I'm going to really be tough to say responsibility instead of role the greatest responsibility I believe a dad has in the home is to be the man that he wants his daughter to marry, ouch, and to be the man he wants his son to become.
Jen G:Agree completely. I don't think anybody would disagree, right, I mean?
Jill:that's a that's a lot. That's a lot but and no one does it perfectly, of course, and we can't do anything any of it perfectly but one of the things we can become so guilty of as parents is, uh, and we don't mean to do this, but we fall into this trap of expecting more of our children than we do of ourselves. You know, we'll let ourselves off the hook because we're working and we're busy and we got so much going on and gosh, we got four kids and you know. But the truth is we can teach kids what we know, but they're going to emulate who we are and we don't do it perfectly. And when we mess up, we ask for forgiveness, and that's part of our duty really is to be transparent and let them see we make mistakes, just like you do.
Jen G:Talk about the mirror of self-reflection as your kids start to get older and they'll do a gesture or something I'm like, oh my gosh, looking in a mirror, yeah.
Jill:I know what you mean I know.
Jen G:Okay, we've kept you here for over an hour at this point.
Mike:I love this and we got a new camp friend.
Jen G:Yeah, we do have a camp friend, that's so cool.
Mike:Anybody else out there go to summer camps in North Carolina? Let us know. Especially Catalina and Chasatonga. That holds a special place in the heart.
Jill:And there especially catalina and chasatonga, that that holds a special place in the heart too, and there's a lot, as you know, in louisiana. Yeah, there's a lot of kids from louisiana to go up there.
Speaker 4:I said that summer I went.
Jill:I stayed six weeks. It was heaven I did the high ropes course, the junior counselor girls the day before I was leaving said miss, jill, you haven't done the high ropes course. I said that's okay, I know I wasn't intended. Yes, miss, you're doing it. And they drug me up and I did it. It's life-changing, really life-changing.
Jen G:Charged with teaching that one day and I could not go through with it. I couldn't, but I did lead caving expeditions and also trips on the Appalachian trail for 10 days at a time. Hey, that's big. But I didn't even know. I had a fear of heights of time. Hey, that's big but I didn't even know.
Jen G:I had a fear of heights. So I do want to get to one more thing. In the closing pages of the book you share the armor prayer God gave you more than 25 years ago as a way of preparing your heart and protecting your family for each new day. Would you recite that for us?
Jill:I will I will.
Jen G:Do you need a cheat sheet?
Jill:No, I do not need a cheat sheet. I did not think you did.
Jill:I don't. I started praying that when boys in first grade and my husband and I pray it. Now I do. The Lord sent me a beautiful man 16 years ago. Next week I'm still on our honeymoon. I'm so proud to say, anyway, sweetest man on earth, I know you have a sweet one, but I'm sorry, mine's the sweetest and anyway. But we pray it every morning and we hug and embrace and we pray it on behalf of our grandchildren now.
Jill:So the prayer goes like this Lord, place upon her, and we say singular plural pronouns. So we say, lord, place upon our head because the two have become one in marriage, right? So, lord, place upon our head the helmet of salvation to protect our mind. Place upon our chest the breastplate of righteousness to protect our heart. Buckle around us the belt of truth that we would know the truth and speak the truth, that we would not be deceived. Nor would we deceive Lord, we'll carry the sword of the Spirit, your word, as an offensive weapon. Enable us to walk in the path of peace you lay before us this day, not stepping to the left or to the right, but walking in its narrow way, with the Holy Spirit dwelling within, with Jesus Christ, our brother, standing with us and with you, the Lord, god Almighty, empowering us, and with you, the Lord, god Almighty empowering us. We will stand and hold the shield of faith this day for Garrett, allie, jack, austin, Kate, addison and Elliot, until each can carry it in their own faith In Jesus' name amen.
Jen G:Amen. That is so beautiful. Thank you for sharing that with us. You're so welcome. I would like for our listeners to know that the proceeds from your book Speaking in All that you Do goes to Manners of the Heart to help further the mission God has given you. So we just we want to thank you for all that you've done for our community and for being with us here today. And how can people interested in your books or in adopting your curriculum get a hold of you?
Jill:Yes, they can visit mannersoftheheartorg to learn more about our curriculum work and to learn more about our parenting work. We do a lot of parenting seminars and workshops one night, or sometimes we do a whole weekend series, like through churches, friday night, and Saturday series as well, and they can go to jillgarnercontentorg to learn more about that aspect of our work.
Jen G:I love that. I'm already writing down a little note. We're going to get a little parenting retreat going up. That's cool, all righty. Ms Jill, thank you so much, it's been a pleasure, thank you, it's a pleasure.
Jill:It's been a pleasure. Thank you. The pleasure's been all mine. Thank you, bye.
